Eclipse Discussion and Random Speculation

[Cinesimilitude]

The new line is all about brand values. Regardless of the flaws of individual titles, Criterion's brand is all about high-quality transfers of high-quality films with high-quality supplements, at a premium price. Adding a bare-bones low-price lower tier to that brand will compromise it. Thus, creating a separate line for that kind of product will get out the more obscure or problematic titles we've been thirsting for without putting the parent brand 'at risk'. No cloud to this silver lining as far as I can see.

Thank you for succinctly saying what would have taken me twice the space to write. Reviews for a small handful of films this year (most notably Koko) have questioned the older, interlaced transfers that were clearly on hold when HVE disolved. More recently, Fallen Idol seems to be the only lower-tier release on the current schedule. I would venture to guess that in addition to releasing more bare-bones discs under a different label, the Criterion-brand will be used to more exclusively cater to higher-end releases (box sets, full restorations, comprehensive supplements, etc.), which would go even further to solidify the brand identity.

I concur with everything in these 2 posts. The Stronger the Criterion spine numbers are the stronger the collection is. Give us the other films, but don't put M&M's in my box of Godivas.

[Andre Jurieu]

I'm just so happy forum members understand what diluting the brand means. (sniff, sniff) I'm just so proud of you kids right now. (sniff, sniff) I'm sorry, I just have something in my eye.

[Tribe]

Really, they're damned no matter what they do here. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Isn't it the truth.

The ranks of the complainers and whiners on this forum have increased dramatically over the years.

Hell, here I am...complaining about the complainers.

Tribe

[Jeff]

I'm just so happy forum members understand what diluting the brand means.

I drive too!

[Gregory]

The new line is all about brand values. Regardless of the flaws of individual titles, Criterion's brand is all about high-quality transfers of high-quality films with high-quality supplements, at a premium price. Adding a bare-bones low-price lower tier to that brand will compromise it. Thus, creating a separate line for that kind of product will get out the more obscure or problematic titles we've been thirsting for without putting the parent brand 'at risk'. No cloud to this silver lining as far as I can see.

Thank you for succinctly saying what would have taken me twice the space to write. Reviews for a small handful of films this year (most notably Koko) have questioned the older, interlaced transfers that were clearly on hold when HVE disolved. More recently, Fallen Idol seems to be the only lower-tier release on the current schedule. I would venture to guess that in addition to releasing more bare-bones discs under a different label, the Criterion-brand will be used to more exclusively cater to higher-end releases (box sets, full restorations, comprehensive supplements, etc.), which would go even further to solidify the brand identity.

This is what I was getting at way back on the first page of this thread. Maybe what I said wasn't detailed enough, only because the strategy of not wanting to dilute the brand seemed fairly straightforward to me. This is essentially the reason some of us took exception to Eclipse as a cult/horror line; a strategy to separate films of that type presumably in order to avoid "diluting" theiir brand with "genre films" seemed like snobbery. Dilution from too many barebones releases and/or battered source elements makes much more sense, and I'm very glad they're doing it the way they're doing it.

ByMarkClark.com... that's not even a real web site, is it?

[ByMarkClark.com]

>>ByMarkClark.com... that's not even a real web site, is it?<<

It used to be. I used it to pimp my book when it came out. Now that it's been out a few years, I let the address lapse. I may restart it, or start a new one, when my next book is released. But that will be another 2 or 3 years away, so why put up with the cost and hassle in the meantime?

As for diluting the brand -- sorry, I just don't see it. As others have posted already, it's not like the CC hasn't issued plenty of discs over the years that were literally or virtually bare-bones.

Then again, I almost never buy a DVD for the supplements. All I care about is the quality of the film and of the presentation. For me, all this emphasis on supplements represents a misplacement of priorities. Ultimately, bonus materials are "nice-to-have," not "need-to-have." For me, money is also a "need-to-have." So the way I see it, would be a PLUS if I could get Criterion-quality transfers of Criterion-worthy films at a lesser price, in exchange for losing some bonus materials I'd probably only watch once anyway.

[toiletduck!]

So the way I see it, would be a PLUS if I could get Criterion-quality transfers of Criterion-worthy films at a lesser price, in exchange for losing some bonus materials I'd probably only watch once anyway.

I'm confused -- how is this not what's happening? The same people are releasing these films, I hardly think they are going to treat them differently in terms of transfers. If supplements aren't a "need-to-have," then certainly you're not holding out for a spine number or a wacky C...

-Toilet Dcuk

[Tommaso]

[The same people are releasing these films, I hardly think they are going to treat them differently in terms of transfers.

This is precisely what I wouldn't be sure about. Of course all their expertise will flow into transfering the film, but will they also spend the money to get rid of those 'thousands of instances of dirt, debris' etc. they routinely remove? I guess we will get fine transfers, but possibly not such a high degree of restoration attempts will be made. But that's better than not seeing those films at all. And I wouldn't care for the lack of extras, too.

[toiletduck!]

Oh, I don't doubt that some of these transfers will look worse for wear than current Criterions, but I can't believe that a half-hearted restoration attempt will be at fault. Some of these source materials will never be able to result in anything approaching a 'fine transfer,' but that doesn't mean some meticulous restoration can't (or won't) take place.

Criterion has hardly gone major corporation on us -- call me an idealist, but I believe that this is still a company run by pure-blood cinephiles, and, as such, they will be treating Eclipse releases as delicately as they do those in the Criterion line (which is probably also a factor in the twelve a year release count).

-Toilet Dcuk

[Gordon]

What are the chances that the DVDs exclusive to the 50 Films set from Janus be released on this 'new label'?

[ByMarkClark.com]

I don't doubt the good intentions of the folks who run the CC, but I'm enough of a cynic to share some of Tommaso's trepidation. Perhaps they are covering their collective arse by not releasing these titles under the Criterion banner, so that Eclipse discs won't be held to that standard.

Also, it just occurs to me that Eclipse titles probably won't be eligible for the 35 percent discount at DVD Planet.

[miless]

Also, it just occurs to me that Eclipse titles probably won't be eligible for the 35 percent discount at DVD Planet.

are the Merchant Ivory Collection titles up for the discount?
this is where you will find the answer...
and from all the rumors I've heard, Eclipse titles will be significantly cheaper than Criterion titles (so will they need a steep discount?)

[toiletduck!]

I don't doubt the good intentions of the folks who run the CC, but I'm enough of a cynic to share some of Tommaso's trepidation. Perhaps they are covering their collective arse by not releasing these titles under the Criterion banner, so that Eclipse discs won't be held to that standard.

It sounds like we're putting two sides on an identical coin. You're most likely right that they are covering said arse, but I can't fault them for that, as I don't think it's them planning on skimping on discs so much as providing releases for which reaching the Criterion standard is entirely infeasible (or even impossible).

Half empty, half full, I guess.

-Toilet Dcuk

[ByMarkClark.com]

I don't know, I'm not a Merchant Ivory collector. I remember in Ye Olden Days, when DVD Planet launched the 35 % discount on Criterions, that HVE titles weren't included. (And Eclipse sounds like a replacement for HVE.) But, as you say, it's obviously still easier on the wallet to buy a $14.99 DVD at 20 or 25 % off instead of a $39.99 DVD at 35 % off. I mean, it's probably no big deal either way. Just a random thought that popped into my head.

[ByMarkClark.com]

>>What are the chances that the DVDs exclusive to the 50 Films set from Janus be released on this 'new label'?<<

I wondered about that myself, but then I re-read the initial post, which launched this thread. It doesn't mention any of those titles. So, presumably, FIRES ON THE PLAIN, EARRINSG OF MADAME DE..., etc., are probably coming eventually as Criterions, not as Eclipse titles. Perhaps the reason they have not yet been announced is because Criterion is still assembling the supplements. Obviously the transfers are in order.

[Cinephrenic]

I wonder if Criterion could get a hold of Enjo, so we could just his Ichikawa's war trilogy along with The Burmese Harp and Fires on the Plain.

[miless]

EARRINSG OF MADAME DE...

wait... is that in the box? it might be worth getting it just for that.

[ByMarkClark.com]

>>I wonder if Criterion could get a hold of Enjo, so we could just his Ichikawa's war trilogy along with The Burmese Harp and Fires on the Plain.<<

From your mouth to Mulvaney's ear.

[Matt]

EARRINSG OF MADAME DE...

wait... is that in the box?

No, it is not. Just buy the Second Sight disc.

[Andre Jurieu]

As for diluting the brand -- sorry, I just don't see it. As others have posted already, it's not like the CC hasn't issued plenty of discs over the years that were literally or virtually bare-bones.

But maybe creating this new line will effectively mean that this practice of issuing films on DVD with little to no extras will not occur as often. In fact, I bet creating this new line will almost force Criterion to add extras to every title they choose to release in order to justify the added price (and the Wacky C). I would also like to point out that most of those films with no extras were among the first titles that Criterion released. What was the last one? Sword of Doom (which actually seems like the type of title that would now be released under Eclipse)? I doubt they particularly enjoyed releasing DVDs without many extras, even if it was a "Criterion-worthy" title, since it kind of made people ask why the cost remained so high. I also doubt we will see another anytime soon now that another line has been established.

[Matt]

Are people assuming that the Eclipse titles will not say "Criterion" anywhere on the package? That's a lot to assume.

[Andre Jurieu]

Are people assuming that the Eclipse titles will not say "Criterion" anywhere on the package? That's a lot to assume.

I though that was half the reason for switching to the "Wacky C," since it easily becomes a "Wacky e" that could be used for the new line. Actually, I should correct myself. I thought it was entire reason to switch to the "Wacky C."

[Matt]

I'm sure "Eclipse" will be the prominent product identity on each disc, but surely Criterion would want to bank a little on their reputation by putting their name somewhere on the packaging.

[Jeff]

I though that was half the reason for switching to the "Wacky C," since it easily becomes a "Wacky e" that could be used for the new line. Actually, I should correct myself. I thought it was entire reason to switch to the "Wacky C."

This is what I'm betting too. Criterion or Janus might appear in the fine print on the back, but the packages will probably be covered with "Wacky e"s and mentions of "The Eclipse Collection." The look of the packages will be similar enough that people will say, "Oh, this looks like it's from the folks at The Criterion Collection," but dissimilar enough that they won't be pissed off at the lack of extras.

[Andre Jurieu]

I'm sure "Eclipse" will be the prominent product identity on each disc, but surely Criterion would want to bank a little on their reputation by putting their name somewhere on the packaging.

I assumed it would just be on the back, kind of like how some Criterions have the "Classic Collection" logo on the back. In terms of product display and shelf space, I just assumed they would ask places like the Virgin Megastores, HMVs, Best Buys, and Kim's to put the Eclipse stuff next to the Criterion stuff.