He may be talking about the Kino pre-resto editions of DIARY on VHS. That awful, horrible, wretched, pink-pillowy, cheeseball blob of whipped cream by Joe Turrin on the FWMS resto Kino DVD is uh, ... an awful, horrible, wretched, pink-pillowy, cheeseball blob of whipped cream.
The VHS of PANDORA I'm talking about is the Janus/Kino, distrib by HVe (as "Home Vision Cinema", it's got Lulu sitting on Schigolch's lap on the box), and is indeed from the late 80's. From memory it starts out w a bleak two-chord figure would be written approx dotted quarter, half-note, then repeats approx whole step down, then goes into the main figure which is approx four ascending eighth notes followed by 3 dotted halfs, descending in tense half steps. This figure gets repeated throughout the film. I can also identify it easily as there's a scene, pre-marriage-sequence, where the son is working out a cabaret sequence on piano, and Geschwitz I believe interrupts his playing to plunk nonsense on the keys, and three dissonant thunks interrupt the busy musichall figure the guy is playing in the score, as if what we're hearing is junior's piano playing.
HerrSchreck wrote: From memory it starts out w a bleak two-chord figure would be written approx dotted quarter, half-note, then repeats approx whole step down, then goes into the main figure which is approx four ascending eighth notes followed by 3 dotted halfs, descending in tense half steps. This figure gets repeated throughout the film. I can also identify it easily as there's a scene, pre-marriage-sequence, where the son is working out a cabaret sequence on piano, and Geschwitz I believe interrupts his playing to plunk nonsense on the keys, and three dissonant thunks interrupt the busy musichall figure the guy is playing in the score, as if what we're hearing is junior's piano playing.
Yep, that's the Stuart Oderman score. That version was first issued back when Embassy had a deal with Janus. That box did credit Oderman. To my surprise, he was using some of the same material just a couple of years ago when I made it to MoMA to see some of the Mauritz Stiller series. Someone who is more of a regular at MoMA silent film showing says he does tend to be repetitious. I think his approach works well in this case. I also remember checking out a 16mm MoMA version of Metropolis (from a public library, no less) that had a very effective score by Oderman. Based on the memory of that, I paid some large bucks a few years back for a Japanese DVD of Metropolis that credited him for the score....only to find it wasn't the same one as the 16mm print, but a seemingly random recording of him playing for god knows what, with obviously no synchronization to the film!
Has anyone heard Timothy Brock's scores for "Pandora's Box" and "Diary of a Lost Girl" that he composed in 86/87 according to this page? The running time for Pandora is listed as 118min so Criterion won't be able to use it.
One thing I would like to see on a title like this is comments from the score composer on the artistic choices he made while composing the score.
AFAIK, only the "Treasures From American Film Archives" DVDs have something like this. On each and very title, there is an "About the Score" section in which the composer explains in pretty detailed fashion why he composed it the way he did, right down to why certain instruments were used, and the inspirations, if any, he got from past works.
Since two of the scores on the "Pandora's Box" DVD will be debuts -- i.e. specially composed for the DVD -- and if the composers are not well known, it would benefit the viewer to provide similar info on the DVD, either on the booklet or on disc.
The Dryden Theatre at George Eastman House will screen Louise Brooks films every Tuesday in November, marking the day of her 100th birthday with a lecture, booksigning, and screening of her most famous film on Tuesday, Nov. 14.
8 p.m. Tuesday, Nov. 7
A GIRL IN EVERY PORT (Howard Hawks, US 1928, 62 min.) Two sailor buddies (Victor McLaglen and King Kong's Robert Armstrong) travel around the world getting into several barroom brawls and falling in love with a number of exotic beauties. The tantalizing Louise Brooks appears in a revealing leotard as a tantalizing high-diving circus artist who seduces each of the men and starts a feud between them. The code of men further explored by director Hawks in films such as Only Angels Have Wings and Rio Bravo, has its origins in this terrific fast-paced comedy. Live piano by Philip C. Carli.
6:30 p.m. Tuesday, Nov. 14
Peter Cowie and Jack Garner present “The Art of Louise Brooksâ€
In regards to the Eastman House screenings I can fill in some info. All of the prints will be, save IT'S THE OLD ARMY GAME, 35mm prints. The gem really will be BEGGARS OF LIFE. We just finished working on that project. The print is a blow up from a 16mm print so there are problems but it is better than what is out there..... which is nothing... couple other 16 mm prints, but none better than ours. Wellman is one of those great directors that is kind of forgotten now. Good film. Rare to say this, but Wallace Beery steals the film from Brooks. A GIRL IN EVERY PORT is Howard Hawks so enough said there. If you come to the screenings make sure you drive by 7 N. Goodman...... that is where she lived while she stayed in Rochester. For the macabre there is also a grave for Louise in one of the local cemeteries.... no body.... as I think she is buried in KC?
kevyip1 wrote:One thing I would like to see on a title like this is comments from the score composer on the artistic choices he made while composing the score.
AFAIK, only the "Treasures From American Film Archives" DVDs have something like this. On each and very title, there is an "About the Score" section in which the composer explains in pretty detailed fashion why he composed it the way he did, right down to why certain instruments were used, and the inspirations, if any, he got from past works.
Not exactly true. Donald "zzzzzz" Sosin explains his choices somewhere in the STORY OF FLOATING WEEDS CC pckg. And "about the score" is a standard feature on quite a number of Kino's discs, from Sauer's notes on the restored THIEF OF BAGDHAD, Turrin does the same for a number of his scores including INTOLERANCE (one of his more digestable electronic scores), Aljosca Zimmerman famously did so for MABUSE DER SPIELER in a video piece used by licensees of the Transit digibeta, Shepard does the same for JUDEX on Flicker Alley. HAXAN of course. It's actually quite common in the zone of R1 silent film as this mostly drab lot of composers love to pretend they've blown the earth off it's tilt & are writing for the awe-struck ages.
HerrSchreck wrote: It's actually quite common in the zone of R1 silent film as this mostly drab lot of composers love to pretend they've blown the earth off it's tilt & are writing for the awe-struck ages.
Whew.....got an axe to grind there....or perhaps to bury in the frame of the offending composer?!
Of course we all want the best for our precious silents on dvd, but it's not as if the going rate of fees commanded by this endeavor, which is probably the very definition of labor of love, is going to command the likes of whomever your dream composer(s) would be (and then we'd probably all disagree on the merits of said score anyhow). In any case, I don't see this kind of feature as prevalent as you do. Having almost having a credit of mine left off a dvd altogether (Dreyers "Michael" almost went out on Kino with cover art that ONLY had the name of the original score's composer, one Hans Joseph Vieth, who's score is not even extant, and who had nothing to do with the release or my work for it....still trying to figure out where that one came from), I'm more inclined to have some recognition for the composer/performer......there are plenty of silent films sitting around waiting for someone to score them before they can see the light of day, and perhaps a little ego massage helps compensate for the slender fees.
I know you just want the best, and so do I (still cringing at the idea of Criterion paying Gillian Anderson for another effort for THIS release....her Haxan score is about as pedestrian as it gets for me).......so I take leave of my soap box!
unclehulot wrote: I know you just want the best, and so do I (still cringing at the idea of Criterion paying Gillian Anderson for another effort for THIS release....her Haxan score is about as pedestrian as it gets for me).......so I take leave of my soap box!
Phew Neal, you gotta axe to grind there, or you just happy to see her fee?
Come on man, don't slay the messenger here, it's not like I'm talking about something new. What do fees have to do with talent? Are you really suggesting that these dudes (who genuinely love silent film I'd wager in at least 2/3rds of cases) have better work which popped to mind while sitting scoring the film but held back saying "Nah that lush haunting counterpoint is at another price point... think I'll release a heap a slop & make myself the laughing stock of the classical world calling my wife in to do Ellen Hutter's groans & 10 Homo Dj's industrial for NOSFERATU & writing Fat Albert music for the beloved PENALTY?" Great way to get higher paying work...
Don't take the job if the fees dissatisfy you. You earn better fees (which hardly exist, peroid, in classical music, so how is this singled out for indignance?) by working your way up by increments of exposure and it seems to me these discs are a quite reasonable starting point given then median talent that seems to be involved.. not to mention to obvious crossover that exists between the silent film audience & the classical/jazz audience. Getting haughty is not going to pay your rent either. Ever play a Jazz club? Ever play any club? Why be a musician if the music itself doesn't interest you-- A lifetime of low fees will see you fobbing garbage off on audiences for the rest of your life if you love jazz & classical Neal-- end of story.
It seems to me that a goodly number of the "professional" composer community got their collective glutei handed to them via the ambitious kids in the TCM Composers Contest on the Chaney set, which-- though not Stravinsky or Bartok-- had some quite genuine moments of writing for the film at hand, decently... because the kids looked at the film and gave it their best.
I recall your disc as we'd once discussed for Dreyer's PARSON'S WIDOW had the feature we're talking about, where you were allowed to go on at length about the pieces selected. And the reason this "About The Score" feature is not so prevalently used is because most film-viewers simply don't care. 99.99999999999 of talkies-- bar Hermann or Steiner or maybe Waxman-- don't have this feature at all. You should be grateful that you work in a medium (silent film) where folks are actually listening.
Silent film scores should be selflessly played entirely in support of the film itself, like a talk show band or sound film score, it exists to serve something else, and these other venues never get a chance to say "Well Jay/Conan/David, tonight I will be playing instrumental versions of Helen Reddy's Delta Dawn & Mungo Jerry's In The Summertime using a Roland...."
And how did the "low fee" situation lead to Israel & Sosin becoming the all-purpose silent film scoreperson's on the face of the earth?
Hmm...I'm not really arguing against your points. Obviously we both have strong opinions about what we hear....I just never really thought that the composer/performers were being showcased to any great extent, but that's the way I see it. How was I "allowed to go on at length about the pieces selected" in "The Parson's Widow"?? All I did was, as requested, provide a list of compositions used, which has ONE menu screen which links to where those compositions are utilized. It's not really a big deal or something I requested, and it wasn't done for anyone's greater glory, merely for those who might be curious as to the works in question. Anyhow, if "most people" don't care about something, that really isn't my concern. That line of reasoning is death to any (hopefully) higher creative impulse......am I to ignore all interpretive detail in my preperation and performance of a Beethoven Sonata because "most people" don't care? In my experience, silent film showings with live accompaniments generate a tremendous amount of interest in the performer....surely you've observed that phenomenon. Once in a great while an audience applauds a sound film, wheras a performer for a silent film invariably gets a warm reception, sometimes in no relation to the quality of the accompaniment! In the case of, say, a Phil Carli, I've counted myself among the very enthusiastic of the audience. Perhaps it's clearer to one when it's visible....of course there are many scores to sound films that have an effect that the layman is unaware of, but profoundly affects their experience of the film. You're on the right track about not calling attention to itself, but it's certainly not as throwaway as your talk show accompaniment comparision would suggest. Art to conceal art, hopefully, is what we're talking about here.
I personally don't give a damn about the fees, the amount of those offered are NOT why I worked on the films I did. This was something I had always wanted to do, and when given the opportunity to work on 3 fabulous films, I jumped at the opportunity. I have a perfectly wonderful job in the classical music field at a fine institution in this town, and I'm not trading places with someone else's idea of how I'm going to make a living, so I guess I'm not sure how I generated your whole discussion about fees. I DO have to think about whether I have the time to devote to such projects, with my busy life, since it's a good 3 weeks of work on a film, minimum, and that's only if it's a solo effort. Ultimately, for me, I would have to compose my own material to take my own abilities in this field to the next level. Since I am not a composer by nature or profession, that would be a leap into the unknown, but perhaps someday I'll be able to take it, and do something of worth. I'm certainly not going to do it merely to "crank-em-out"!
My remark about Gillian Anderson wasn't because I'm jealous of her fee (for all I know it IS low), but because I know Criterion is probably shelling out a good amount of money to hire her band, and if Criterion is holding up on releasing other silent films because they feel they need to pay for an orchestral score , I wish they would spend the money elsewhere than on HER work, which is simply not detailed enough on a scene for scene basis, based on what I've heard of her work. What I was trying to say, and was not clear about, is that 99% of silent films as produced for video, are simply not done on a budget to hire the "top" film composers in Hollywood, and the fees offered are not on that scale. Obviously, we would never see even a small percentage of what has been released if this were the case, so it's not really a value judgement, just a statement of the conditions that exist. For what ever reason, the funding for such enterprises seems to happen once in a while in the UK or Europe, and not in the U.S.....and the irony is, the most prominent example in this country, Carmine Coppola "Napoleon" score, has been a disaster for the film, past AND present!
I didn't intend to get SO far OT here, sorry. Perhaps, if you have more to add to this, you could send me a PM.
unclehulot wrote: Anyhow, if "most people" don't care about something, that really isn't my concern. That line of reasoning is death to any (hopefully) higher creative impulse......am I to ignore all interpretive detail in my preperation and performance of a Beethoven Sonata because "most people" don't care? In my experience, silent film showings with live accompaniments generate a tremendous amount of interest in the performer....surely you've observed that phenomenon. ... Perhaps it's clearer to one when it's visible....of course there are many scores to sound films that have an effect that the layman is unaware of, but profoundly affects their experience of the film.
(...)
I didn't intend to get SO far OT here, sorry. Perhaps, if you have more to add to this, you could send me a PM.
Re your first quote, I was precisely saying that the silent film world is far more receptive to scores than the typical talkie audience when I said
not to mention to obvious crossover that exists between the silent film audience & the classical/jazz audience.
and
You should be grateful that you work in a medium (silent film) where folks are actually listening.
What I'm saying is the simple obvious fact-- people are buying a film, not a score. When the score is so bad it interferes with the film-- it's a disgrace. And the problem I sense more than anything is composers doing this on purpose, specifically to call attention to themselves, and wind up jumping up & down and waving their arms around competing witthe film for attention. Nothing pisses me off more. Ten-twenty years ago the orchestral scores for NOSFERATU or HUNCHBACK etc were actually pretty nice-- it was a job, and done anonymously for little public credit. Too much need for celebritydom and recognition today with our all-participation media, and not enough bespectacled, coffee soaked, headached, shirt & tie, anonymous craft by real old fashioned professionals who, like the drab flashless artisan cinematographers of the old days who really only expected the adulation of their small circle of peers, treated their job like a journeyman craft that was a job like any other job. Today's crew are too public-driven and art-oblivious.
And as to continuing the convo-- there's always this
Mysterypez wrote:In regards to the Eastman House screenings I can fill in some info. All of the prints will be, save IT'S THE OLD ARMY GAME, 35mm prints. The gem really will be BEGGARS OF LIFE. We just finished working on that project. The print is a blow up from a 16mm print so there are problems but it is better than what is out there..... which is nothing... couple other 16 mm prints, but none better than ours. Wellman is one of those great directors that is kind of forgotten now. Good film. Rare to say this, but Wallace Beery steals the film from Brooks. A GIRL IN EVERY PORT is Howard Hawks so enough said there. If you come to the screenings make sure you drive by 7 N. Goodman...... that is where she lived while she stayed in Rochester. For the macabre there is also a grave for Louise in one of the local cemeteries.... no body.... as I think she is buried in KC?
Thanks for the info. Don't know if we'll be able to make any of the screenings (we're about 90 minutes from Rochester & I'm heading into a busy time at work). Never knew what the exact address was for her house, just that it was on Goodman.
Got the new Peter Cowie book Louise Brooks: Lulu Forever -- a fantastic album of photos devoted to her film work and life from the 1920's, stunningly reproduced. It's perhaps not surprising that he's dedicated the book to William Becker -- "mentor, host and friend". A nice warm-up to the imminent release of Pandora's Box...
HerrSchreck wrote:Anyone have a clue when this thing is due out anyhoo? Surprised no early streetings or even beev (p)review..
I got it about 10 days ago in the "50 Films" box and watched it last night. I found it a bit silly in the beginning but what a dramatic change after the first 20 minutes. Lulu is just lovely and her good look still works on me. Evil woman...
