The Muppets
- milk114
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:38 pm
- Location: Mar Vista, Los Angeles
For some reason "Saying Goodbye" from The Muppets Take Manhattan popped into my head earlier today and won't dislodge itself. I was young but I remember seeing this movie on the big screen when it came out. I was raised in Mr Rogers and Sesame Street, but remember most the Muppets movies (and Muppet Babies and Fraggle Rock). The Muppet Movie was the first time I ever saw Bob Hope onscreen (as the ice cream seller), The Great Muppet Caper my first Charles Grodin movie. My favorite song when small (I mean pre-school age) was Rainbow Connection. I loved Labyrinth more than Dark Crystal (the Steksis scared the hell out of me and, even at a young age on my part, I enjoyed watching Jennifer Connelly more than a muppet).
Why bring this all up here? Because the Muppets are a lot more special to me than I ever realized. And with hindsight, they were a lot more sophisticated than I was aware at the time. Much as Brad Bird has been romping around these past few months talking about how animation isn't a genre but a tool and how animation directors are always overlooked, I think Jim Henson is an overlooked genius. I know there are places to go for muppet-love on the internet, and since I started this with a rambling sample of my personal love for Henson's work it looks like that is the tone I'm trying to set here but it is not. I wanted to get it out of the way and to focus a conversation on
How Henson and his Muppets' films and television shows are worthy of a critical analysis ala Kubrick or Kurosawa while leaving emotional baggage at the door.
But can that be done? (consider this a metaquestion about all analysis)
The songs of the Muppet films are what draw my memory to the specific scenes but I doubt that I could remember specific dialogue. What is it about the musical choices that make them stand out above other films? THe songs are more whimsical, more poignant, more emotional than in most movie musicals.
Why are we attached to pieces of felt animated by a hand or a rod? Is Kermit the everyman of the late 20th century that Charlie Chaplin and Mickey Mouse were supposed to be for an earlier generation? Do we as an audience place ourselves in the cypher of Kermit and experience his trials and tribulations and exultations for ourselves? Or do some people empathize more with Miss Piggy or with Gonzo or Fozzie?
What genre do these films belong to? Are the action/adventure or dramas or musicals or comedies? Are they only children/family films, as if that is a genre unto itself? Is it fair to lump them with animated films that more often than not follow Disney's pattern of main character, talking animal sidekick, a villain and six songs? Would The Great Muppet Caper, for example, hold up against any other heist film if it didn't star felt but real people?
If Jim Henson was the creative genius behind the Muppets, what about others like Frank Oz, who also directed, produced, "animated," voiced, and created some of the most memorable characters, or Brian Henson, who is trying to keep the quality of his father's work alive? Where do the many others not mentioned figure into the Henson/Muppet universe, especially when it is as diverse of Big Bird and Yoda, Storyteller and Farscape, Fraggle Rock and MirrorMask, the upcoming Astro Boy and Hitchhiker's Guide?
Hearing "Mah-Na Mah-Na" being used to advertise diet-added-flavor-carbonated beverage made me more irritated than seeing "I'm Spartacus" used for a rival company. Why am I protective of The Muppets more so than Kubrick? I guess, all in all, they seem to get no respect except from the rabid OCD fanfolk who's brethren worship at the feet of Lucas, Tolkien, Roddenberry, comics, et al. I am not nor ever have been diagnosed with OCD, am meerly a life-long fan, and yet they have affected me. Where do the Muppets and Jim Henson stand in the realm of film and film fans? (I wonder too where they stand with puppeteers across the world, but have no clue about that scene and wouldn't know where to ask). Thanks for reading this (if you really have) and please share. So it goes.
Why bring this all up here? Because the Muppets are a lot more special to me than I ever realized. And with hindsight, they were a lot more sophisticated than I was aware at the time. Much as Brad Bird has been romping around these past few months talking about how animation isn't a genre but a tool and how animation directors are always overlooked, I think Jim Henson is an overlooked genius. I know there are places to go for muppet-love on the internet, and since I started this with a rambling sample of my personal love for Henson's work it looks like that is the tone I'm trying to set here but it is not. I wanted to get it out of the way and to focus a conversation on
How Henson and his Muppets' films and television shows are worthy of a critical analysis ala Kubrick or Kurosawa while leaving emotional baggage at the door.
But can that be done? (consider this a metaquestion about all analysis)
The songs of the Muppet films are what draw my memory to the specific scenes but I doubt that I could remember specific dialogue. What is it about the musical choices that make them stand out above other films? THe songs are more whimsical, more poignant, more emotional than in most movie musicals.
Why are we attached to pieces of felt animated by a hand or a rod? Is Kermit the everyman of the late 20th century that Charlie Chaplin and Mickey Mouse were supposed to be for an earlier generation? Do we as an audience place ourselves in the cypher of Kermit and experience his trials and tribulations and exultations for ourselves? Or do some people empathize more with Miss Piggy or with Gonzo or Fozzie?
What genre do these films belong to? Are the action/adventure or dramas or musicals or comedies? Are they only children/family films, as if that is a genre unto itself? Is it fair to lump them with animated films that more often than not follow Disney's pattern of main character, talking animal sidekick, a villain and six songs? Would The Great Muppet Caper, for example, hold up against any other heist film if it didn't star felt but real people?
If Jim Henson was the creative genius behind the Muppets, what about others like Frank Oz, who also directed, produced, "animated," voiced, and created some of the most memorable characters, or Brian Henson, who is trying to keep the quality of his father's work alive? Where do the many others not mentioned figure into the Henson/Muppet universe, especially when it is as diverse of Big Bird and Yoda, Storyteller and Farscape, Fraggle Rock and MirrorMask, the upcoming Astro Boy and Hitchhiker's Guide?
Hearing "Mah-Na Mah-Na" being used to advertise diet-added-flavor-carbonated beverage made me more irritated than seeing "I'm Spartacus" used for a rival company. Why am I protective of The Muppets more so than Kubrick? I guess, all in all, they seem to get no respect except from the rabid OCD fanfolk who's brethren worship at the feet of Lucas, Tolkien, Roddenberry, comics, et al. I am not nor ever have been diagnosed with OCD, am meerly a life-long fan, and yet they have affected me. Where do the Muppets and Jim Henson stand in the realm of film and film fans? (I wonder too where they stand with puppeteers across the world, but have no clue about that scene and wouldn't know where to ask). Thanks for reading this (if you really have) and please share. So it goes.
- bcsparker
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:41 am
- Location: Waging War With The DVD Monkey On My Back
I will say there's one scene that always gets me. At the end of The Muppet Movie, after the rainbow comes through the roof of the studio. After a pause, Kermit starts singing (Life is a movie, make your own ending...), and then everyone joins in. Maybe it's just a simple combination of music and image, but I get chills when I watch that bit.
And it is criminal now that most of the Muppet output on DVD is OOP. Apparently, the shows are getting remastered and repackaged chronologically (a la The Twilight Zone). I just hope Disney hurries up - yeah, like that's gonna happen.
And it is criminal now that most of the Muppet output on DVD is OOP. Apparently, the shows are getting remastered and repackaged chronologically (a la The Twilight Zone). I just hope Disney hurries up - yeah, like that's gonna happen.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:24 pm
You can relax on that score, at least. 'Mah-Na Mah-Na' was not a Muppet original, but a cover of a track from the softcore porn film Sweden - Heaven and Hell - see here for details.milk114 wrote:
Hearing "Mah-Na Mah-Na" being used to advertise diet-added-flavor-carbonated beverage made me more irritated than seeing "I'm Spartacus" used for a rival company. Why am I protective of The Muppets more so than Kubrick?
Bachelorette Parties! Moonfighting Nudes!
The Muppet version is much better, though. Umiliani's original sounds like the soundtrack for a Benny Hill skit.
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Astroman
- FAQ: "Man or Astroman?"
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:31 pm
My god.'Mah-Na Mah-Na' was not a Muppet original, but a cover of a track from the softcore porn film Sweden - Heaven and Hell
I bow to you. The fantastic, wonderful knowledge shared here is invaluable.
The Muppets without Jim Henson are like any Looney Tunes cartoon not done by Jones/Freling/Clampett/Avery/etc. When genuine creators are at work, their personalities really do come out, as opposed to the later, more corporatized incarnations - no soul whatsoever.
It would be really nice to have The Muppet Show preserved on dvd. Would also love a collection of early Henson television appearances (Ed Sullivan, local tv broadcasts, and such).
- solaris72
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:03 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD
It's time to play the music, it's time to light the lights...Astroman wrote:It would be really nice to have The Muppet Show preserved on dvd.
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Astroman
- FAQ: "Man or Astroman?"
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:31 pm
It's time to get things started!
Pretty dang cool. Thanks for the info.
You know, the Muppets theme and the Bugs Bunny tv show theme ("Overture, curtain, lights... and oh what heights we'll hit, on with the show, this is it") are two great, catchy, fun songs about puttin' on a show. Almost Mickey Rooney/Judy Garland-y.
Pretty dang cool. Thanks for the info.
You know, the Muppets theme and the Bugs Bunny tv show theme ("Overture, curtain, lights... and oh what heights we'll hit, on with the show, this is it") are two great, catchy, fun songs about puttin' on a show. Almost Mickey Rooney/Judy Garland-y.
- emcflat
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:12 pm
- Location: Chicago
- Contact:
Great post, Milk114
I agree that the muppet stuff is maybe a little undervalued. It's a HUGE part of my childhood. Watching Sesame Street every day, Muppet Babies, later the Muppet Show, the movies, love 'em all..
I think that ALL of the Henson stuff needs some love on DVD. There was a DVD that is now OOP of Emmet Otter's Jug-Band Christmas which apparently had some of the footage removed from the full version. Muppet Family Christmas is also OOP now... Very glad to see that Fraggle Rock has been picked up for DVD releases.
I will say that the one that is dearest to my heart is a special called "The Christmas Toy." This was on VHS only (those who know it will notice more than a slight resemblance to the later obscure Disney Fetaure "Toy Story.")
My hope is that the Muppet movies are OOP now for some greater purpose, like a big grandiose DVD special edition box set extravaganza.
I agree that the muppet stuff is maybe a little undervalued. It's a HUGE part of my childhood. Watching Sesame Street every day, Muppet Babies, later the Muppet Show, the movies, love 'em all..
I think that ALL of the Henson stuff needs some love on DVD. There was a DVD that is now OOP of Emmet Otter's Jug-Band Christmas which apparently had some of the footage removed from the full version. Muppet Family Christmas is also OOP now... Very glad to see that Fraggle Rock has been picked up for DVD releases.
I will say that the one that is dearest to my heart is a special called "The Christmas Toy." This was on VHS only (those who know it will notice more than a slight resemblance to the later obscure Disney Fetaure "Toy Story.")
My hope is that the Muppet movies are OOP now for some greater purpose, like a big grandiose DVD special edition box set extravaganza.
- The Elegant Dandy Fop
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:25 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
- King of Kong
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:32 pm
- Location: New Zealand
- Contact:
For what it's worth, The Great Muppet Caper was the first feature film I ever saw. My folks taped it off TV for me, but seeing as the tape they used was three-quarters used up, the film stopped just as Oscar the Grouch made his cameo: a big piss-off for me in my early years. It was only later that I managed to see the film in its entirety.
Anyway, the muppet movies have this campiness about them that is almost irresistable. Where else will you find a pantsless Steve Martin as a waiter? Or Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy as judges in a beauty pageant? Or John Cleese as, er, an upper-class twit?
Anyway, the muppet movies have this campiness about them that is almost irresistable. Where else will you find a pantsless Steve Martin as a waiter? Or Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy as judges in a beauty pageant? Or John Cleese as, er, an upper-class twit?
- bcsparker
- Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:41 am
- Location: Waging War With The DVD Monkey On My Back
- King of Kong
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:32 pm
- Location: New Zealand
- Contact:
Maybe it was a conscious decision not to get too much of Charlie in the frame - he probably had a woody.bcsparker wrote:You know, to me that always seemed like the most heavy handed cameo in any of the films. I'm not knocking Edgar Bergen, just the execution. I don't know about you, but the way the shot is framed, I never end up looking at Charlie.Or Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy as judges in a beauty pageant?
- Fletch F. Fletch
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:54 pm
- Location: Provo, Utah
According The Digital Bits:
The big DVD news today is that Disney has officially announced the DVD release of The Muppet Show: Season One for 8/9. The long-awaited 4-disc set will include all 24 first season episodes, along with Jim Henson's original pitch reel for the show, a gag reel, the original pilot episode and a feature called Muppet Movies.
- hearthesilence
- Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:22 am
- Location: NYC
The Muppets didn't age well with me. I vaguely remember the Muppet Show, which went off the air around the time I started elementary school. I used to watch the Muppet Babies, but I was a huge fan of Sesame Street, saw all the Muppet movies up until the late 80's. But I stopped watching them, and after getting reacquainted, I dunno. Sesame Street's changed a bit, but it still goes over well with the younger kids, and I still think it's a great children's show, Exhibit A as to why PBS is fine just the way it is (I'm talkin' to YOU, Tomlinson).
But, watching the movies and clips of the old and mid-90's Muppet Shows, the corny jokes, the puns, etc. it just ain't funny anymore. Regardless, the mid-90's show should've stayed on the air a little longer. At least the guests were really interesting (anyone see the one with Prince? They were streaming the entire episode over at housequake.com for awhile. May still be there.)
But, watching the movies and clips of the old and mid-90's Muppet Shows, the corny jokes, the puns, etc. it just ain't funny anymore. Regardless, the mid-90's show should've stayed on the air a little longer. At least the guests were really interesting (anyone see the one with Prince? They were streaming the entire episode over at housequake.com for awhile. May still be there.)
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rs98762001
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:04 pm